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Follow Up on the Poet Doctor's Blog

Blog Posted:7/14/2018 7:58:00 AM

I agree that sentences, in proper form, should not begin with conjunctions unless for exceptional artistic reason. It should, however, be acceptable to start a poetic line that is enjambed (a continuation of the previous line) since that, in esscence is still part of the sentence.

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Keith
Trestrail

Date: 7/15/2018 8:49:00 PM

Hey, what's going on here, Chris and Tommy? Where's all the name-calling, bitterness and toxicity gone? You know, the good old days. When did you two kiss and make up? When did your planets realign? Quick Tommy, say something insufferably you!

Keith Trestrail
Date: 7/15/2018 9:32:00 PM

That'll do it. Thatta boy!

Keith Trestrail
Date: 7/15/2018 9:00:00 PM

I'm ready to get all medieval! Nah, sounds like too much hard work! Nice to see ya back Mr A.

John
lawless

Date: 7/15/2018 6:20:00 PM

So perhaps we do not have our "Poetic License" yet....can we at least apply for a "Learner's Permit"?

Keith
Trestrail

Date: 7/15/2018 8:47:00 AM

I'd like to contribute more but it's getting late and past my bedtime. But I'll leave you with this: what did the poet say to Luke Skywalker? Metaphors be with you!

craig cornish
Date: 7/15/2018 11:01:00 AM

and also with you, sleep tight down under, Sir Trestrail.

FJ Thomas
Date: 7/15/2018 10:25:00 AM

-.-

Suzette
Richards

Date: 7/15/2018 1:05:00 AM

I have tried to address this question of puctuation & grammar rules in my booklet, Poetree: free download on my website www.suzettepoet.webs.com. A spinoff to this question: Do we use words in poems which the average reader are not familiar with, or not?

Suzette Richards
Date: 7/15/2018 3:05:00 PM

Well, Chris, it is your poem - I'm sure you would do it justice. I would love to read the finished product. I'm off to bed now (10 pm here). G'nite.

Suzette Richards
Date: 7/15/2018 2:48:00 PM

Yes, there are exeptions, although I stated further down that I don't use caps or punctuation in Suzette Prime. Slip of the tongue ...

Suzette Richards
Date: 7/15/2018 2:34:00 PM

No capital letters, except for proper nouns. I do use ellipses and em dashes sparingly if only to avoid confusion and dangling partcipals. Any sequence of numbers may be used. See Eileen's "An Argument for Love." I do not police the poems using Suzette P

craig cornish
Date: 7/15/2018 2:30:00 PM

Twommy, therein is your answer, Sylvia, though a creative gem, was not totally sane---but then most creative minds are the same. We share that chaos on the edge of it all---hoping not to fall.---hey, that's a poem!

craig cornish
Date: 7/15/2018 8:12:00 AM

Hmmm, depends what you mean by average. Are we, the contributors to this blog, average? Are the mean intelligence of poetry soup members the average or is it the general public. I think we as writers have a better vocabulary than non writers and therefore use words impulsively that many are not familiar with but, to get to the crux of your question, it depends who you want to appeal to. The general public will lose interest very quickly if they have to look up words but I think there is a "happy medium" between Hallmark and highbrow where we can challenge the language and not lose the reader.

Dear Heart- Wiishkobe Ode
Date: 7/15/2018 6:58:00 AM

EE Cummings threw all grammar and punctuation rules out the window. He stung words together, he made up silly words, he had tons of fragmented lines, yet his poetry has become famous and is to many beautiful, and this was long ago so why not us, can we not throw some strict traditions to the wind also and create a unique style

James Marshall Goff
Date: 7/15/2018 6:07:00 AM

one can have immense fun gliding vowels, diphthongoing, ligaturing & more...I just ink expressions heard 'round me here in Minnesota, ya knoow! whatablast and all that stuff! my sunflowers are righteous!

James Marshall
Goff

Date: 7/14/2018 8:05:00 PM

ee cummings utilized spaces as often as commas & periods to conclude thoughts, though often deeply thought, his lines expressed a lyricism unencumbered...

Suzette Richards
Date: 7/15/2018 1:12:00 AM

Great example, James. This topic is close to my heart as I don't use punctuation or capital letters in my Suzette Prime (similar to tanka and haiku) and believe it does not detract from the poetry.

craig cornish
Date: 7/14/2018 9:17:00 PM

Great example which at some point had dwelled in the corners of my mind---thanks James

Agnes
Krampe

Date: 7/14/2018 4:03:00 PM

I would like to ask a spin-off question that is grammar related as well: how does everyone here feel about the use of phrases that are not complete sentences? I have been on a poetry forum where incomplete sentences without full punctuation drew scathing reprimands; however, I feel that as a stylistic measure, phrases can be very appropriate in poems. They can signal the fragmented nature of thoughts and feelings, fleeting impressions - I don't believe we THINK in complete sentences all the time.

Julia Ward
Date: 7/16/2018 4:00:00 AM

@ July Morning... Incompleteness in titles is another matter.

FJ Thomas
Date: 7/15/2018 8:29:00 PM

I agree with Julia.

Julia Ward
Date: 7/15/2018 7:02:00 AM

Incompleteness in phrasing creates interest and often conveys the mood better than completeness. Done well, such poetry can be among the best there is.

Andrea Dietrich
Date: 7/14/2018 7:26:00 PM

Agnes, I feel it's the poet's job to at least write so that we comprehend what he is saying. I have known people to make long sentences with poor punctuation, so I honestly cannot tell where one part begins and the other ends. The same thing happens with phrases. If they don't make sense, I don't like it. A good writer chooses the the order of the words in his phrase to make it work!! (I still prefer traditional sentences though)

craig cornish
Date: 7/14/2018 6:01:00 PM

I love creative fragments, like Sue says, especially in our native languages and especially more so with those we intimately know all we need is to intimate or nod at the thought to be understood but in a poem to the masses it is what creates that ambiguity that allows the reader to both fill in their thoughts while coming up with their own ideas/conclusions/inspirations--I cannot comprehend a true poet having issues with that.

Suzette Richards
Date: 7/14/2018 4:38:00 PM

I don't think we speak in full sentences either. Many thoughts are left ... Or is it just me?

FJ Thomas
Date: 7/14/2018 4:30:00 PM

You've said it perfectly Agnes. In most arts everyday rules do not apply; and many times do not fit. I think in the case of fragmented sentences we may see them a lot in poetry because our thoughts and emotions themselves may be but fragments of a whole. Still the reader usually grasps the meaning. Just sharing my humble view point :)

Suzette
Richards

Date: 7/14/2018 3:14:00 PM

I agree, Craig. Lines in poetry are not full sentences and can't always follow the rules of prose. If one should consider meter, then starting the line with e.g. "and" is not off, especially if the previous line ended with a word to allow for rhyme.

craig cornish
Date: 7/14/2018 3:45:00 PM

True, and even without that meter thingy, enjambment is definitely celebrated in today's poetry and even without it our freedom to stretch the language for "effect" should, in most ways, be free.

Agnes
Krampe

Date: 7/14/2018 1:13:00 PM

Any writing should be thoughtful. No matter what type of writing, the choice to begin a sentence with a conjunction should be deliberate and for a reason. I am using "and" at the beginning of sentences/lines for stylistic reasons, to emulate certain historic modes of speech, to emphasize. The "rule" not to begin a sentence with a coordinating conjunction is as contrived as the one not to end a sentence with a preposition; it is more a matter of style than a matter of grammar.

Eve Roper
Date: 7/14/2018 7:00:00 PM

Like your input, Agnes ... Hugs

Keith Trestrail
Date: 7/14/2018 5:55:00 PM

Agnes, I agree and I think you're wonderful. Now, about Oktoberfest - can you teach me some Germanic phrases that I will need and that won't get me into trouble? You know, things like..."hey fraulein, those are the finest jugs in all Bavaria...can I have a taste?". Get back to me, Agnes, I'm counting on you.

craig cornish
Date: 7/14/2018 3:33:00 PM

Agnes, if English is your second language, I bow to you because your logic and expression of it is more succinct than 90% of EFLs could do...in addition, you should be a lawyer! Well said, not that you need or want my approval.

Agnes Krampe
Date: 7/14/2018 2:52:00 PM

Craig, that is where "ANY writing should be thoughtful" comes in. The thought can be in adhering to an arbitrary rule because the writer expects a better outcome from that, or the thought can be in deliberately writing against the rule to make a point. My main point was that breaking any of the rules should be the result of intentional action, not just of an insufficient mastery of grammar.

craig cornish
Date: 7/14/2018 1:30:00 PM

I think there are many instances that require proper grammar and therefore the correct traditional use of the language. One must be cautious of "allowances" because that can become a slippery slope to sloppy writing for business papers etc. The younger generation is already challenged in that regard. You seem to speak in absolutes masked in artistic pretext. Not everything need be artistic and thoughtful need not break tradition or it may do so at its own peril. Send a resume cover letter with your ideals and don't expect a reply.

craig
cornish

Date: 7/14/2018 10:55:00 AM

It is an interesting topic Poet Doctor and worthy of discussion, the predominant question being, "Do, or should, the standard rules of English (or any language) apply to poetry or what "rules" should apply to any art form?" Even if you are writing prose and desire to be different for "effect", should you be constrained by proper grammar? I think not, yet in saying that, I do think that in normal writings the proper presentation of every language has been abused and not for creative reasons, but for ignorant ones. Fundamentals should always precede the creative; one should know how to catch a ball with two hands before they get fancy with one---just thinkin'.

Frederic
Parker

Date: 7/14/2018 10:27:00 AM

I've done it, then sometimes I'll re-read and go why did I do it...then again I've never been accused of using proper english...thanks Craig, I can't remember when you ever posted a blog then pushed the no comment button and you've had some lively blogs

craig cornish
Date: 7/14/2018 1:34:00 PM

Thank you Frederic---Though I think you are very proper!

Dear Heart-
Wiishkobe Ode

Date: 7/14/2018 10:12:00 AM

Poetry should not be lesson in proper grammar, to me that is totally losing the poetic flow,. Poets all through time have been using and, but etc at beginnings of sentences, I do it all the time and if I do not place in a contest because I used poetic license then so be it, but I am not prepared to change poetic freedom for someone's .strict grammar rules

Robert Lindley
Date: 7/14/2018 6:48:00 PM

BWDH, I agree with you completely. Poetic Heart and Poetic Freedom are what any true poet should strive to maintain, along with Originality.... There will always be critics, some are just blind, others are ignorant and others still, striking out because of jealousy/ their own self-inflated egos. Rules, like treaties are made to be broken..my 2 cents..

craig cornish
Date: 7/14/2018 11:41:00 AM

Agreed Constance

Eve Roper
Date: 7/14/2018 11:16:00 AM

:) Broken Wings, I am here to support you.

Eve Roper
Date: 7/14/2018 11:16:00 AM

:) Broken Wings, I am here to support you.

Dear Heart- Wiishkobe Ode
Date: 7/14/2018 10:17:00 AM

And to post a blog asking a question and then not allowing replies is in my opinion not helpful to poetry in any way. Blogs should be about back and forth communication. Just my opinion, thanks for the blog Craig.

Keith
Trestrail

Date: 7/14/2018 8:43:00 AM

So mea culpa, mea culpa, I confess...I do it sometimes. But there are far worse indiscretions in my opinion. And I am an employer of enjambment as well. Just do what comes natural and feels right to you. What annoys me more is posting a blog with no comments. I find it self-serving! Cheers.

Eve Roper
Date: 7/14/2018 6:57:00 PM

I'm not sure if Connie was talking about me, I hope not.. Because I took down my blog so I wouldn't get anymore responses. She did give good advice.. I found out it's my modem and I am getting a new one from my provider. Yeah!!!!!

Keith Trestrail
Date: 7/14/2018 5:39:00 PM

Hey Tommy gun, Firstly I'll drink with anyone but I draw the line at Fosters - I'd rather drink sump oil. Hugs!

Keith Trestrail
Date: 7/14/2018 5:35:00 PM

Hi Connie, nice to see you on the blogs again recently. You always add colour and texture to our little blog galleries.

craig cornish
Date: 7/14/2018 3:36:00 PM

So heart warming to see the bonding here---July and Keith---wonderful XXOO

connie pachecho
Date: 7/14/2018 11:55:00 AM

I agree although guilty. What I hate are the ones behind blogs that are taken down after a week. Why take equity in someone's blog for educational purposes when they are going to erase it. I see no logic in that. Regarding poetry I liken it to art, namely if the overall picture is pleasing to the eye and not redundant.

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