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On Poetry :: Punctuation - beto riginale's Blog

About beto riginale
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Ciao a tutti!
Welcome to my work and blog. Here are a few words about me.
        I was born and raised near Berkeley, California, and was introduced to the beatniks in North Beach by a high school friend in the late '50s. That is an event that influenced the rest of my life.
        I studied mathematics, philosophy, and German at university. By a quirk of fate, I became a computer scientist and website designer for most of my professional life. Since retirement, I have written poetry, essays, and translated German -> English and Spanish -> English. I write only free verse, haiku, and (some) prose poetry.

My favorite poets (in no particular order) :

Allen Ginsberg
Lawrence Ferlinghetti
Gertrude Stein
E. E. Cummings
William Carlos Williams
T. S. Eliot
Jack Kerouac
Alejandra Pizarnik
Charles Bukowski

Thank you for stopping by to read my work and blog.
Beto


On Poetry :: Punctuation

Blog Posted:12/28/2019 4:29:00 PM

Introduction

A web search on poetry punctuation reveals a large number of references to the topic with all kinds of information, tips, and opinions, so it appears to be a hot topic.
        Many writers believe that poetry should be punctuated according to standard English grammar and that (nearly) each line of a poem should end with some punctuation, usually a comma, question mark, or period. There certainly exists an enormous body of work that uses that form.
        The question of punctuation in poetry is, in my opinion, well answered, or, perhaps better said, well described in one of Gertrude Stein's lectures (1935), available online(1)(2), wherein she addresses the question of what is english literature and then goes on to poetry and grammar. I recommend reading the complete lecture. The quotes I give are from this lecture as printed in the text of the talk. Note that the lecture is not easy reading, but interesting nonetheless.

Question Mark, Exclamation Mark, and Quotes

It is evident that if you ask a question you ask a question but anybody who can read at all knows when a question is a question as it is written in writing. ... Exclamation marks have the same difficulty and also quotation marks, they are unnecessary, they are ugly, they spoil the line of the writing or the printing and anyway what is the use, if you do not know that a question is a question what is the use of its being a question. The same thing is true of an exclamation. And the same thing is true of a quotation.
Gertrude Stein
 

I reviewed 30 of my poems, randomly chosen and found that I use question marks 16 times in four poems, exclamation marks twice in two poems, and quotes not at all. I agree with Stein regarding question marks and no longer use them. In the two cases where I had included an exclamation mark, I found that I could remove them and use my standard typography for emphasizing a word or phrase by indentation.

 

Dashes, Dots, and Spaces

There are besides dashes and dots, [by which, I assume Stein refers to an ellipsis] and spaces [by which, I assume Stein refers to multiple spaces] might be interesting. They might if one felt that way about them.
Gertrude Stein
 
I do not use any of these and never found them necessary. However, E. E. Cummings, in his works shortly after World War I, does use them. For instance, in an untitled poem(3) from 1918, he writes:
 
let us suspect,chérie,this not very
big box completely mysterious, on whose shut
lid in large letters but neatly is
inscribed "Immortality".        And not
go too near it,however people brag of
the wonderful things inside
which are altogether too good to miss----
but we'll go,by,together,giving it a wide
berth.        Silently.       Making our feet
think.       Holding our breath----
if we look at it we will want to touch it.
And we mustn't because(something tells me)
ever so very carefully if we
begin to handle it
out jumps Jack Death
E. E. Cummings (ca. 1918)
 
Notice, that in addition to Cummings' use of spaces and dashes, he omits the single space following each comma and preceding the opening paren.

Periods

Inevitably no matter how completely I had to have writing go on, physically one had to again and again stop sometime and if one had to again and again stop some time then periods had to exist. Beside I had always liked the look of periods and I liked what they did.  Stopping sometime did not really keep one from going on, it was nothing that interfered, it was only something that happened, and as it happened as a perfectly natural happening, I did believe in periods and I used them. I really never stopped using them.
        Beside that periods might later come to have a life of their own to commence breaking up things in arbitrary ways, that has happened lately with me in a poem I have written called Winning His way....
Gertrude Stein
 
Once again, I reviewed my 30 poems and found 56 instances in 12 works. So clearly I use periods often, but not everywhere. I found that most periods that I used are not necessary since they were at the end of a stanza, and I always leave white space between stanzas. For instance, I wrote
 
The Infernal Serpent
coiled ’round the soul of man
strangles the love and understanding
imbued by the Creator
supplanting it with hatred and distrust.
The result
conflict
 
There is clearly (in my opinion) no need for the period in the last line of the verse. The observant reader will notice that in my work, I do not start each line with a capital. Instead, I choose to use an initial capital only when beginning a new thought (sentence were I writing prose) or, on occasion, to start a new verse.

Colons and Semi-colons

There are two different ways of thinking about colons and semi-colons you can think of them as commas and as such they are purely servile or you can think of them as periods and then using them can make you feel adventurous. I can see that one might feel about them as periods.... I began unfortunately to feel them as a comma and commas are servile they have no life of their own... they are put there just for practical purposes.
Gertrude Stein
 
Here I agree with Gertrude Stein and I never use them in poetry.

Commas

...commas are servile and they have no life of their own, and their use is not a use, it is a way of replacing one’s own interest and I do decidedly like to like my own interest my own interest in what I am doing. A comma by helping you along holding your coat for you and putting on your shoes keeps you from living your life as actively as you should lead it...
Gertrude Stein
 
Wow! I don't think I have ever read anything so condemning of commas as Stein's remark. When I scanned my sample of 30 poems, I discovered 64 commas in 10 poems. For instance in the third verse of Fighting for Peace I wrote
 
1 Even between friends,
2 when disagreement escalates to argument,
3 what happens to kindness, patience, understanding?
4 Out, out, damn spot!
5 A friend lost, possibly forever.
 
which has traditional punctuation. Each line has some form of end of line punctuation: two commas (lines 1 and 2), one question mark (line 3, one exclamation mark (line 4), and a period (line 5). I wrote the poem almost two years ago at a time when I was still uncertain about how I wanted to punctuate. Were I to write the same stanza today, I would write it like this
 
1 Even between friends
2 when disagreement escalates to argument
3 what happens
4 to kindness
5 to patience
6 to understanding
7 Out out damn spot
8 A friend lost
9 possibly forever
 
Allow me to explain. I removed all punctuation. In the new version, each (quasi) sentence begins with a capital (lines 1, 7, and 8) indicating a new thought (sentence.) Continuations of a sentence on a new line to not start with a capital. Lines 4, 5, and 6 are a list, as you can see by comparing with line 3 in the first version. I do not find an ending question mark in line 6 necessary, as it clearly is a question. Similarly, no exclamation mark is required at the end of line 6 (which is a paraphrase of Lady MacBeth's remark.) Line 9 is indented for extra emphasis.
 
In a future essay, I will discuss in more detail the interplay of typography with punctuation. 
 

References

(1) search gertrude stein lectures in america livejournal
(2) search gertrude stein lectures in america smithsonianmag
(3) E. E. Cummings Complete Poems 1904 - 1962; ed. George J. Firmage; p1013

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Date: 1/14/2020 7:19:00 PM
I think Punctuation is important. Run on sentences is very confusing. One needs to separate words, using commas and so on.. I am one to follow the rules- most of the time. :) Not always. I like writing in lower case a lot. Something about it. It's like a whisper upon the page. I enjoy highlighting certain words or phrases. Seems to emphasize what I am wanting to say, even more. :) Brandy
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Date: 12/31/2019 8:17:00 AM
I tend to punctuate to suit the poem. Mostly I punctuate as if it were prose. That just makes sense to me. For light verse, sometimes it’s appropriate to use the much-sneered-at “comma at the end of a line, capital at the beginning of the next line” because some light poems don’t look right if punctuated any other way. For a wispy free verse, maybe no punctuation at all. Exclamation marks and question marks are welcome here. And the E E Cummings thing of not putting a space after a comma - why?! It’s just annoying. As are the lower case initials which I have kindly corrected for him in this comment. ;-)
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riginale Avatar
beto riginale
Date: 12/31/2019 12:17:00 PM
I write (almost only) free verse in which lineation is important. Of course the writer is free to choose a style of punctuation. re Cummings, as I recall, a publisher started using e.e. tho' he preferred E.E. When I first read some of his work, it was published with e.e. so I tend to continue that. I will write another essay to address some of the comments to this essay. thanks for your input. - beto
Date: 12/30/2019 11:42:00 AM
Beto, interesting blog, sometimes I am strict with myself with punctuation but other times I throw it to the wind and just use my poetic license with created pauses of my own choosing -Constance
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riginale Avatar
beto riginale
Date: 12/31/2019 12:12:00 PM
I agree that the writer is free to choose whatever style of punctuation is appropriate for a given work. IMO it is a question of lineation and whether the work is written for the eye or the ear.
Date: 12/29/2019 8:15:00 AM
This is why I renew my poetic license every season
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riginale Avatar
beto riginale
Date: 12/29/2019 11:09:00 AM
hahaha - for someone who is lawless, I would have thought that not be necessary :-)
Date: 12/28/2019 9:31:00 PM
I use punctuation as a guide to understanding how a writer wishes the read to go, in terms of pauses, inflection etc and find that i have no clue what all the spaces mean - like is this a short or long pause? By quotations, does that mean conversation or referencing something? In the end, poetry isn’t necessarily communicating effectively so much as individualistic artistry so it isn’t too concerning at all... funny how she views the commas Interesting blog :)
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riginale Avatar
beto riginale
Date: 12/29/2019 11:16:00 AM
I agree that punctuation is or at least can be a guide to how the writer wishes the read to go. However IMO a lack of punctuation leaves the reader free(er) to interpret the work in other ways, possibly not foreseen by the writer. That is particularly true for free verse.
Date: 12/28/2019 8:19:00 PM
I enjoyed your blog and greatly appreciated Miss Stein's comments But (as you can see by the capital B and the lack of a period after the word comments) I have not been completely convinced. (Note the period.) lol Much use of punctuation in poetry is possibly (in my mind) because the writer enjoys the look of the piece when it is (hopefully properly) adorned with ."();,and !
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riginale Avatar
beto riginale
Date: 12/29/2019 11:19:00 AM
I, as well as Stein, am primarily concerned with free verse, tho' she also uses odd punctuation in some of her prose.

My Past Blog Posts

 
Darkness Revisited :: decomposed
Date Posted: 1/17/2020 2:51:00 PM
On Poetry :: Punctuation
Date Posted: 12/28/2019 4:29:00 PM
Have Some Fun
Date Posted: 12/16/2019 1:02:00 PM
PoetrySoup :: Using a Word Processor
Date Posted: 12/14/2019 1:21:00 PM
PoetrySoup :: Typography II
Date Posted: 12/12/2019 4:57:00 PM
bow hows decrypted
Date Posted: 12/10/2019 4:41:00 PM
PoetrySoup :: Typography I
Date Posted: 12/6/2019 6:11:00 PM
On Poetry :: How I Translate
Date Posted: 11/22/2019 5:08:00 PM
On Poetry :: Translation
Date Posted: 11/20/2019 3:39:00 PM

My Recent Poems

Date PostedPoemTitleFormCategories
1/15/2020 Howard Street - 1948 Free verselife,social,
1/10/2020 Darkness Revisited - revision Coupletdark,hope,life,
1/5/2020 An Educated Man Free verseeducation,life,philosophy
1/3/2020 Darkness Revisited Free versedark,hope,life,
12/31/2019 b Free versei am,philosophy,
12/27/2019 Now Free verseintrospection,philosophy,
12/24/2019 A Question Free versedark,fear,hope,
12/20/2019 cogito ergo sum Free verseintrospection,philosophy,
12/17/2019 HAIKU :: 9 :: CHANGE Haikuallegory,change,
12/13/2019 Three O'clock in the Morning Free verseallegory,life,marriage,
12/8/2019 bow hows Shapelanguage,poetry,
12/7/2019 Unravelling Free verselanguage,philosophy,poetr
12/5/2019 Gazing Free verseallegory,life,
12/4/2019 Put your heart 'round me Free verseconflict,hope,peace,roman
12/2/2019 Fighting for Peace Free versepeace,war,
11/23/2019 Wuji :: Quietude Free versesymbolism,universe,
11/21/2019 The Box Free verseallegory,dark,death,depre
11/20/2019 The Infernal Serpent Free verseconflict,peace,
11/20/2019 HAIKU :: 8 :: SPARROWS Haikuimagery,nature,water,
11/19/2019 For Jack Free verseencouraging,freedom,hope,
11/19/2019 HAIKU :: 7 :: SUNRISE Haikuhope,imagery,peace,sun,
11/18/2019 Living into Peace Free verseanxiety,peace,philosophy,
11/18/2019 HAIKU :: 6 :: A TRILOGY Haikuencouraging,life,relation
11/17/2019 Night Silence Free verseallegory,dark,loneliness,
11/17/2019 HAIKU :: 5 :: COLORS Haikucolor,flower,hope,imagery
11/16/2019 HAIKU :: 4 :: SCARLET BIRD Haikuautumn,bird,imagery,life,
11/15/2019 HAIKU :: 3 :: LIFE Haikucolor,imagery,life,solitu
11/14/2019 HAIKU :: 2 :: AUTUMN Haikuimagery,nature,november,p
11/13/2019 HAIKU :: 1 :: GRIEF Haikudark,depression,grief,
11/9/2019 scream of silence Free verseallegory,dark,fear,night,
11/8/2019 the cave Free verseallegory,dark,hope,romanc
10/29/2019 Rain in Mexico Free verseallegory,color,hope,image
10/25/2019 Truth Free versedark,night,truth,
10/23/2019 The Blind Man Free versedark,political,satire,soc
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