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One Syllable or Two? Survey says...

Blog Posted by John Watt: 4/10/2020 2:04:00 AM

When we include the word "poem" in a poem, should it count as one syllable or two? We poets are always counting syllables for haiku, sonnets, quaterns, and such, so maybe you have encountered this situation already. Some may rhyme it with "home", others with "know 'em" (yes, really). Before you google it or go to the links below, read this question and leave a comment here with your answer as an informal survey of our international collective of poets:

Which sounds like a correctly written iambic pentameter line to you:

#1: Your poem is like a garden of delight

#2: Your poem is a garden of delight

Leave your answer in the comment box, then if you'd like to see what the rest of the world thinks, you may google it or try the links below...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo0VpNxQhrY (one syllable)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_joNFrI9Uw (two syllables)

Come back in a few days, and I will tally your inputs. When you are considering words and their proper syllable counts, I would endorse an article here at poetry soup written by our illustrious poetess (and ESL English teacher) Andrea Dietrich, on the subject of syllable counts and vowel sounds:

https://www.poetrysoup.com/article/syllable_count_and_english_vowel_ sounds-266

Happy syllable counting!

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Panagiota
Romios

Date: 3/9/2021 6:12:00 AM

Hi John, can't read your blog. The lines double over. In your explanation. An older iPad does that. I am sure ite great Pangie

John Watt
Date: 3/9/2021 2:45:00 PM

Thanks for taking time to visit, Pangie. I'm sorry it doesn't read well on your iPad. I will try to send it to you in a Soup Mail. Hugs ~ John

Craig
Cornish

Date: 4/15/2020 9:58:00 PM

John, this is the best blog of the year so far because it inspired thoughtful repose or shall I say pause...even though there were moments of tension, screw it all, I love tension as long as it ends in repose because when one mixes bathos and sublime we end up hopefully in some hammock between a couple old oak trees wondering about nothing except that everyone is done making sense of the incomprehensible - isn't that what we're supposed to do? Yet, if we can answer that question...there is no need to say more and that would be a "don't wake them" moment.

Andrea
Dietrich

Date: 4/14/2020 4:29:00 PM

If I am not mistaken, this is your very first blog , John. Congratulations on it being a success! I remember those first times I blogged. I went a bit blog crazy and was putting up "holiday of the day" for every day of the week almost, which did not go over too well!

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/16/2020 8:03:00 AM

It's ironic Andrea that excellently metered and rhythmic poetry is often written with no regard for syllable count line to line but simply the use of qualitative and quantitative meter/metre like a drum beat. Your poems usually march to those beats.

Andrea Dietrich
Date: 4/15/2020 10:16:00 PM

thanks, Craig. Both you and John, exceptional!

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/15/2020 8:31:00 PM

Andrea---I've read some of John's poems---He's exceptional and needs no advice from me except to properly explain how exceptional he is LOL WOW

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/15/2020 7:51:00 PM

Thanks AD---not to prove anything other than your advice is respected here and you sometimes sell that short -one doesn't have to be a loudmouth like me to make that happen LOL Not that you need my approval--but hugs anyway

Andrea Dietrich
Date: 4/15/2020 10:01:00 AM

When did I ever support such a thing as that, simply by congratulating my friend on the success of his blog?? Let me rephrase: When did I NOT support the fact that syllables and meters are a different story? Of course, they are different "animals" completely.

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/14/2020 10:02:00 PM

Andrea, PLEASE support the fact that syllables in and of themselves are NOT meter and PLEASE do not put any buts in the answer---we can go on from there - thank you in advance for your answer.

John Watt
Date: 4/14/2020 5:59:00 PM

Thanks for the affirmation! I dove in head first, not sure what I would find. I found some intriguing dialog between kind, intelligent poets. They are the ones who made it work out well.

John
Watt

Date: 4/14/2020 11:40:00 AM

(2) A sub-context of the syllable counting dialog is the contest judge's right to be precise in their expectations of carefully counted syllables. I find a spectrum of judges exist at Poetry Soup and elsewhere. On one end, those who prefer their meters carefully parsed, on the other end, those who feel that strict meter is stifling and reduces the impact of the message. In the middle are those who give neither credit nor deduction for careful meter, as the message is the protein of the meal and meter is more of a garnish. Meter supports the greater good; flexibility is granted. Am I leaving anybody out?

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/15/2020 6:03:00 PM

Sold John--respectfully, I'll get out of the way now---at least in public--will mail you--bet you can't wait lol

John Watt
Date: 4/15/2020 4:09:00 PM

2) But I get your point that in moving immediately from a discussion of syllables to meters, some (though I wouldn't expect 'most' as you presume) might be misled into thinking that the two are synonymous. Hopefully they will read this comment and know that this was not my intention at all.

John Watt
Date: 4/15/2020 4:08:00 PM

1) Craig, I can see how my synopsis statement above could be misunderstood because in speaking about judges, I was referencing a blog comment that has since been removed!

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/15/2020 4:02:00 PM

#3 Fair enough John, Let me put it this way--Hmm, we have a pile of bricks that are syllables (Most analogies are flawed and what ifs but) and you can arrange them anyway you wish. You can build a perfectly old fashioned wall with ten per row - one down, one up (iambic pentameter) up/down=trochee etc to infinite eyes crossed...or toss the bricks out into a pile and let others be bored or entertained by the amiguities or just line up ten in a row and ten in a row once again which is actually restricted free verse or many forms which are great but have nothing to do with meter. Yes, syllables are the bricks from which all else is built but then there are architects who want just a little more - some good some well...I believe in respect for the traditional to carry and use and implement but with that respect to pass on the teachings correctly and not fall prey to the "everything's okay" crowd.

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/15/2020 4:01:00 PM

Never AD

Andrea Dietrich
Date: 4/15/2020 3:43:00 PM

give it a rest already, Craig. Your point is well taken by now. Those with brains can figure out what John is saying. If they can't, let them remain in K-3.

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/15/2020 3:22:00 PM

Response to #2 - John, read what you said above. As an Army DI who used to instruct trainees how not to do stupid things that will kill others in battle I know the deal "If you can teach the dummest one in the class everyone else will live longer". LOL - I know this isn't life or death but it is a "grown up" poetry site not K-3. Many, no, most will take what you've said as equaling meter with syllables because you jump from sentence one speaking of syllables to the rest which only addresses meter without taking a breath. More than half the crowd will take that as gospel and quite honestly You are obviously a great guy and mean well but...

John Watt
Date: 4/15/2020 3:18:00 PM

Yes, somebody left a comment earlier (it has since been removed) that this is not a new subject on Poetry Soup blogs. Sorry to pick at old scabs, my friend. It was purely unintentional. One of the hazards of being 'Johnny Come Lately', ha! I shall have to go re-read your previous comments re: meter and syllables. Thanks for clarifying.

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/15/2020 3:03:00 PM

Okay, an answer to comment #1 - fair enough but I more than laid groundwork with my comments relative to syllable and meter below and you don't know this but this has been an on going issue for years so it becomes frustrating when someone anew repeats the same mantra as the old - not your fault.

John Watt
Date: 4/15/2020 11:48:00 AM

3) I would encourage you to make your point (either with your comments or providing us with links to websites that expound on your point of view) rather than simply accuse or berate people. I am seeking civil discourse in my blog, and I encourage all who seek the same to contribute their varying points of view without the fear of stepping on a landmine. Fair enough?

John Watt
Date: 4/15/2020 11:48:00 AM

2) As to meter, please point out the phrasing I used to confuse syllables with meter. I admit I am an amateur poet, but I am not trying to mislead anybody or teach them wrong principles about poetry reading and writing. I know the difference between iambic and trochaic and recognize that syllable count is merely a building block towards creating a winsome meter within poetry.

John Watt
Date: 4/15/2020 11:47:00 AM

1) Craig, two threads to address: the discussion and the tone of the discussion. As to tone, I feel the blog creator has a right to monitor the level of civility within a blog. You didn't hurt my feelings. I do want to hear your points and learn from your perspective. But jumping to conclusions without laying proper groundwork and making unfounded accusations run contrary to the tone of my blog.

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/14/2020 9:53:00 PM

John, I hope I am correct in assuming that you want your thoughts to be informative and helpful especially to those who are just learning the craft. I hope you will admit that when you have suggested/alluded to a topic that is irrefutable again and again and still they make a totally wrong analysis as you have here that it reaches a level of frustration. If you had left meter out of your comment and just addressed syllables it would be correct but you have equated the simple counting of syllables with meter which is totally incorrect. I invite anyone to tell me why I am wrong with what I am saying here. Do you want to have those who don't truly know believe what is not true and have it be your fault or do you want to pass on constructive knowledge that can be used as a tool for future poets to use. Sorry if I hurt your feelings but...

John Watt
Date: 4/14/2020 5:55:00 PM

Craig, I admire your ideas and your passion for this subject; your tone, not so much. I don't mind being disagreed with, or being instructed in areas where I am lacking, but can we turn up the civility before proceeding?

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/14/2020 4:08:00 PM

If you want to truly dissect what matters you must study prosody but if you want to truly write it on an amateur level you must put your mind to music.

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/14/2020 4:02:00 PM

Yes John, those that are aware that syllable count and meter are not one and not even brother and sister but truly distant cousins--why is this so difficult for everyone to comprehend. You speak of them like one in the same when they are definitively not. Syllables have relatively nothing to do with cadence - this is so freakin frustrating!

John
Watt

Date: 4/14/2020 11:27:00 AM

(1) I promised you all a tally of the survey votes for 1 syllable or 2 on the word "poem". The final result is in and it is ... (drum roll, please!)... One and a half! Just kidding... Six of you replied that line #2 sounds best (two syllables), two of you replied that #1 sounds best (one syllable), and two replied with a write-in vote of "either/or". Based upon comments, I think more would have voted "either/or" if I had made that an option, as many of you replied that poetry's rhythmical context should be the final judge, giving the author the benefit of the doubt. Thank you all for your insights and collective wisdom ~ John

Constance
La France

Date: 4/11/2020 3:15:00 PM

Hi John, it is two syllables in my humble opinion po-em = 2 syllables, of course accents could change that but as a Canadian we lean more to the British way, I learned to spell and read by reading syllables and reading it as pom just seems wrong to me _Constance

Constance La France
Date: 4/12/2020 9:44:00 AM

Hi Craig (1 syllable) syllables have been drilled into my head since forever and as you say I will probably die by syllables - anyways as a result I won many a spelling bee in school and I am seldom stumped in spelling because I can sound out the word and 90% of the time, I am correct. Those years of the nuns drilling my head with syllables has paid off as a writer when it comes to those syllable type poems. I am doing Zumba on line through Zoom with my friends, it is a way of us getting together, we do it each day, so I am dancing still but in my dining room turned dance floor each day _Constance (2 syllables)

John Watt
Date: 4/11/2020 11:58:00 PM

Thank you for your thoughtful and humble comment, Constance. It's a good reminder of the Canadian/British connection (unless one is Quebecois, in which case one is pronouncing poème). Appreciate the visit to my first blog.

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/11/2020 5:29:00 PM

BTW - Viva LaFrance - you know XXOO - hugs Hope you & your friends are slipping and chuckling (one syllable? LOL) through this!! No, not three chuck ling--chuck-l-ing----& hoping your Zumbas can be sooner than later--years already rush way too fast to waste one.

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/11/2020 4:53:00 PM

Just to clarify Constance, I'm not suggesting to pronounce it pom or that I think it is one syllable but that in the context John presented it that the blending of the syllables together while still saying poem without enunciating the distinction, is more pleasant to the ear and flow. That exists in many more instances than this example - you're totally missing my point - if, as a poet, you live by syllables you will die by them.

Craig
Cornish

Date: 4/11/2020 1:26:00 PM

I'll write about more thoughts later but the primary difficulty here is that the line is taken out of rhythmic context. Given the line out of context I strongly feel the simile in line one, no matter the argument for syllables, has a more iambic feel because it has more comfortable flow and pronouncing it with two syllables sounds as affected as those who pronounce toward as two syllables. How do most people with a relatively accent free dialect speak when they use the word. Let us leave the exact science to escape velocity and poetic "feel" to our ears and not some pointy head counting "real" syllables which mean NOTHING. It doesn't matter anyway - the way you leave your reader does.

Craig
Cornish

Date: 4/11/2020 9:42:00 AM

Interesting blog John and actually more proof as to why many have such difficulty writing with any type of cadence when they are either required to or wish to employ as a poetic tool. It is much like someone saying to you impromptu, "Tell that FUNNY joke you to told me" or "Sing that song you do so well". I call it "On-the Spotism". Anything you have to specifically "Think" about and is less spontaneous becomes more stilted/less natural and therefore usually poorly performed. Practice=Perfection (or closer to) - yes, but only if you're taught the fundamentals correctly and most are approaching cadence/meter backwards--step #1 forget about syllables! I'll be back to clarify.

John Watt
Date: 4/11/2020 11:47:00 PM

Craig, I once had a friend tell me I was going to LOVE, LOVE, LOVE this new movie. As expected, I found it very ordinary and dull. I returned to see it 15 years later and actually enjoyed it very much! The setup totally killed it. "On-the-Spotism" - I like that!

Andrea
Dietrich

Date: 4/10/2020 10:14:00 AM

Great first blog, John!

John Watt
Date: 4/11/2020 11:36:00 PM

Thank you, Andrea! I didn't know it would generate such enthusiastic banter! Kudos to you for suggesting I do it.

Andrea
Dietrich

Date: 4/10/2020 10:13:00 AM

John, for me, both lines sound good. But I lean toward number one. I would realize as I was reading the lines of iambic pentameter that the first person was a (pome) pronouncer person. and if saw line 2, I would switch to Po-em in my mind, realizing the writer was probably a Brit (I know Brian says the English don't call themselves Brits,but I just saw down here , Wendy said "we brits")! Thanks for including my long boring article I wrote a long time ago about syllables. I do find it a fascinating topic! I have never in my life heard "going" pronounced as one syllable, but I agree more with Nina and Line on this one! Both ways can be correct!

Andrea Dietrich
Date: 4/13/2020 9:32:00 PM

haha, thanks, John!!

John Watt
Date: 4/11/2020 11:34:00 PM

Craig, I really like your EB White quote regarding who calls whom "Yankee".

John Watt
Date: 4/11/2020 11:32:00 PM

Andrea, you win the prize for enkindling the most commentary! The discourse regarding British, Brits, Yanks, and Yankees was most enlightening.

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/11/2020 5:33:00 PM

All this brought up a great old movie "Yankee Doddle Dandy" with James Cagney - the dance scene left me out of breath way back when I was in great shape--the George M Cohen story - great oldie

Andrea Dietrich
Date: 4/11/2020 2:10:00 PM

yes, and then there is the musical Damn Yankees. Let's not forgot the baseball team! I think I also have a wee bit of Scandanavian blood too! My sister had her DNA done and I look so much like her, I am assuming we are very similar in our DNA as well.

Craig Cornish
Date: 4/11/2020 9:13:00 AM

Hmm, Pretty similar lineage AD except I'm about 80% Brit, then Welsh, then Scot & Irish with a tad French...but 100% Yank and proud of it. The Yanks as New Englander's kicked the Brits back across the pond, beat the Rebels to end slavery much sooner than it would have otherwise evolved and as eastern Europe refers to Americans saved the Brits, Scots, Irish, French and the rest from all becoming Krauts. EB White who wrote Charlotte's Web and revised a book by Strunks (which I read in linguistics) called "The Elements of Style" addresses some of the idiosyncrasies of "American" English had a humorous take on the word "Yankee". To foreigners a yankee is an American; To Americans a yankee is a northerner; To northerners a yankee is an easterner; To easterners a yankee is a New Englander; To New Englander a yankee is a Vermonter and to a Vermonter a yankee is someone who eats pie for breakfast. Syllables are another subject.

Andrea Dietrich
Date: 4/10/2020 7:45:00 PM

I don't mind Yank or Yankee. I think most Americans do not care about such things. I think Yankee dated back to the REvolution when the redcoats sang it to mock the Americans!! But it became famous with Yankees because the American troops just sang it back and did not let it bother them (that is what I read somewhere about the song). yes, Dylan was quite the poet!

Andrea Dietrich
Date: 4/10/2020 2:55:00 PM

by the way, Brian, I am at least 1/4 to 1/3 Welsh blood and a little English and Scotch/Irish mixed in! My mother is quite proud of being Welsh. She has this notion they are great singers and poets.

Andrea Dietrich
Date: 4/10/2020 2:50:00 PM

ok you British (Welsh) people whatever. For those of us "across the pond" we kinda like our slang a lot!!! hahaha

Julia Ward
Date: 4/10/2020 2:02:00 PM

I agree with Brian. I NEVER call myself a Brit - British, please.

John
Lawless

Date: 4/10/2020 9:16:00 AM

I would go with number two as it seems to have better sounding meter. Even Shakespeare dropped the occasional nine syllable lines to preserve the cadence and meter and often the impact of his lines.

John Watt
Date: 4/11/2020 11:25:00 PM

Thanks for the vote, John. I believe you were the first American to register a vote. It is to be expected when posting a blog after midnight California time that our European friends would have first crack at it!

Wendy
Watson

Date: 4/10/2020 6:50:00 AM

I would humbly beg to differ with the idea that syllable count is unimportant especially in relation to the flow of certain poetic forms - sonnets come to mind. However, although I disagree, Nina that 'going' could ever be considered as a one-syllabled word, there is certainly a discrepancy between the way we all read the rhythm of a sentence. As a Brit, I agree with Julia, John, that 'poem' would always be considered a 2-syllabled word. Thus example 2 has the British vote! ........................................................... An interesting discussion has emerged around my use of the word 'Brit' which I hardly ever use but it just popped into my mind as a comparison to the many American poets who might be browsing the blog. I guess 'As a Briton' or 'British person', would have been more fitting, however I see nothing derogatory about this simple abbreviation. On official forms and if asked my nationality, I would tend to write Welsh actually. As for POM, Keith I've heard that it stands for 'Poets Of Merit' so we'll take that!!

Julia Ward
Date: 4/12/2020 3:36:00 AM

John, Thanks for your sensitivity to this issue. If someone asked me if I were a Brit, I'd say no, but I'm British.

John Watt
Date: 4/11/2020 11:22:00 PM

Julia, thank you for educating me about the use of "Brit". I wasn't aware that it was a phrase a British person would take issue with. I shall endeavor to use it with care, if I use it at all.

John Watt
Date: 4/11/2020 11:19:00 PM

Wendy, thank you for your original comment and the enlightening addendum. Also, for such politeness in begging to differ! The whole British vs. Brit sub-dialogue was an unexpected twist, but very enlightening.

Julia Ward
Date: 4/10/2020 1:58:00 PM

Yes a British vote... I take issue with "Brit", though. It's only been used in the last few years and was started by the foreign press.

Line
Gauthier

Date: 4/10/2020 6:38:00 AM

I strongly think some words should be flexible ~ depending on their context, ie how the poet wants the line to be read. One other consideration is regional accents. So, my vote is for a third category of "either/or".

John Watt
Date: 4/11/2020 11:16:00 PM

Good points, Line. Distinctions between nations or even regions within a nation make for the human diversity that makes the arts so intriguing. Your comment about flexibility seems to have a lot of support, too.

Julia
Ward

Date: 4/10/2020 2:48:00 AM

In British English, the word is never said as one syllable when spoken correctly.

John Watt
Date: 4/11/2020 11:04:00 PM

Plus, you win the prize for being the first to comment, beating Brian by mere seconds!

John Watt
Date: 4/11/2020 11:03:00 PM

Julia, from the respondents above, I see you have represented the British English speakers well, as all those from the U.K., Australia, and Canada agree with two syllables.

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