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Mary Rotman
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It Pays to Copy Edit

Blog Posted by Mary Rotman: 7/31/2015 9:29:00 PM

When I talk to people about grammar and language, they overwhelmingly tell me that they're not important because people don't care about them any more. This may be true. But it is also true that to people who DO care--such as knowledgeable readers and PUBLISHERS---they are crucial. A publisher doesn't overlook your terrible grammar and read on anyway to see if the content is good. They'll just toss you on the slush pile, deal done.

IF I start to read a poem and the poet has no grasp of "their, there, they're," I generally move on to the next poem. The same is true of so many other words: its vs it's, lie vs lay, bear vs bare, etc. I've even had to reread poems from the beginning because "bear" being misspelled threw off the meaning of the whole poem. And, beware the homonym--spellchecker can't help you there. Remember that little things that seem inconsequential can add up over time and change our beautiful language completely.

Everyone used to have a good knowledge of grammar in previous eras. Schools taught it, and it was emphasized as a vital part of the curriculum. I have an Amazon Kindle, and I have chosen not to buy many of the self-published books they offer because they are unreadable. 

Hire a copy editor, ask a knowledgeable fellow writer for a critique, or join a poetry reading group. It's something small that will make a difference for everyone. And check out The Chicago Manual of Style, or any other well-respected work as a reference. I became a copy editor because I read the Chicago Manual and mentored with a friend. It was well worth it! You may even develop a skill that can earn you some cash in the long run!

 

 



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Date: 8/4/2015 9:05:00 PM
Thank you for pointing that out, but you can usually tell whether that's what is affecting the writing, at least for me. I have also found in my experience that people learning ESL take pride in learning it and tend to take what they learn to heart. We had a 16 year old Russian exchange student. She was fluent in Russian, English, Polish, and German. And I mean FLUENT. Hope you are feeling well today.
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Date: 8/2/2015 11:46:00 PM
I should check the blogs more often. I missed all this fun. Andrea, I am glad you are the way you are about grammar. I have learned from you. I also like that fact that you mention the grammar issue in your contest instructions. You are more forgiving in your contest placements than I will ever be.
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Date: 8/2/2015 10:41:00 PM
Just do what you are doing #1 for a reason & #2 be consistant & if the reader doesn't get the message you intended to then, you need to try a different approach.
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Date: 8/1/2015 11:04:00 PM
Wow! What happened! I was only gone a little while! No one is perfect, but we can all be better. And someone who continually improves deserves to be recognized. And if I can't figure out the meaning of your poem because you used the wrong homonym, well, what then? And chances are that if you think you're being overlooked because of your grammar, then you should take a look at the rest of the poem as well. I don't think anyone here would choose correct grammar over an otherwise brilliant poem.
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 11:22:00 PM
I have all kinds of poems on my winners' lists, Mary! Actually not too many have grammar problems. I enjoy the new system I have for judging now. For me, the perfect poem employs all the elements: good message, imagery, etc. When it all comes together, i am wowed!! Hope to see you in my contests. I usually end up putting more than 3/4 of the poets on my lists. I didn't want to do this in the beginning, but dang, it's really hard not to show all of them! I just got my new contest up and was excited to come tell you!
Date: 8/1/2015 4:32:00 PM
being an english prof, i am a stickler for grammar as well, mary.. but i make slight mistakes too, we all do , i think..the best way is to be vigilant about its proper usage.. no one has the monopoly over 100% correct grammar.. even famous poets had their slips.. i am more lenient to those who use english as their second language , especially when finalizing my contests.
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 5:42:00 PM
that is for sure, Nette! A funny thing on being lenient to those who do not have English as native language, one time I tried to do that, and when I saw my winners' list, I was shocked to see it was an English speaker who wrote the poem! Truly I thought the mistakes were those made by someone who did not know the language all that well! (not a matter of grammar, just the general style)
Date: 8/1/2015 3:50:00 PM
I don't quarrel with Andrea placing importance on grammar, FJ. She can do that while she is actively judging, after all. I used "we" with particular reference to her post referring to "some people here". It wasn't all-embracing.
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Nette Onclaud
Date: 8/2/2015 1:00:00 PM
*are YOU*
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Nette Onclaud
Date: 8/1/2015 4:35:00 PM
are trying to split hairs, julia?
Date: 8/1/2015 1:42:00 PM
Gosh, Mary, where are YOU? Your awesome blog has gone hot. As you may have noticed, I enjoy this kind of blog!
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 5:38:00 PM
It is funny the contradictions I am seeing even now!! Luv ya, Nette.
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Nette Onclaud
Date: 8/1/2015 4:56:00 PM
forgot the other parenthesis, lol!..or did i unconsciously do this to lighten the mood here?
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Nette Onclaud
Date: 8/1/2015 4:37:00 PM
andie, she got turned off by -----------( complete the sentence in your mind; whatever it is. ohh my!
Date: 8/1/2015 1:20:00 PM
I personally take grammar and proper word usage seriously. Proper word usage, bare and bear etc. obviously diminish the message offered. Spell check has thrown me a clinker on more than one write. A reread,edit, hopefully will catch this. I strive to use punctuation correctly, sometimes to remove over use in my edit. If a poet spurns punctuation entirely I will be open to interpret this as a style choice. However at times they will use one comma and that sets me off,lol. The use of spaces, small and large, instead of commas alienates me to an extreme. I find this distracting and a violation to the printed words. Proper punctuation are tools to set pace, pause, and end of thought to readers.
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 1:40:00 PM
oops, I meant "It" mirrors my thoughts. hahaha. Now I feel like I have to be on my toes!!
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 1:29:00 PM
Love this comment, Robert. They mirror my own thoughts on the matter.
Date: 8/1/2015 1:11:00 PM
Frank Herrera Date: 8/1/2015 10:40:00 OOPS! I MEANT THE COMMENT BELOW FOR THE LINDLEY COUPLE. ------------------------------------ Ralph Waldo Emerson ... If you cannot be a poet, be the poem. ... and a kind of lethargy steals over all the finer senses of the soul. .... Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. Ralph Waldo Emerson ... If you cannot be a poet, be the poem. ... and a kind of lethargy steals over all the finer senses of the soul. .... Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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Date: 8/1/2015 12:33:00 PM
Frank - My picture is ready to post, but Poetry Soup's system is not working. The point I made was about grammar, and how we don't need lectures on it prior to reading about contests.
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Date: 8/1/2015 10:29:00 AM
Andrea - Grammar, not other aspects, was under consideration. By the way, I have only talked to you once before, and that was about your triolet contest. I didn't find that time-wasting in the least.// P.S. Don't blame me for how comments appear in comment boxes. I am not responsible for Poetry Soup glitches!
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Date: 8/1/2015 10:08:00 AM
Hi Mary, I found your blog so interesting! And the comments trail below are very fun to read. I may have to pull back and be careful to my comment. Grammar and punctuation, we all taught but perhaps not well-trained to practice in our living. but to be a poet , I hope this will not hinder us from writing. I must admit, that English isn't my first language, and perfect grammar isn't my forte' . I agree with Robert , write as you speak ! :O) And I still appreciate those who came and left their comments ,whose pretty kind to read my poems and help me correct my errors. We all need you ,grammar buddies , to help everyone improve their writing skills. Kudos !! :O)
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Nette Onclaud
Date: 8/1/2015 4:40:00 PM
aye, aye, aiyah!
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Robert Lindley
Date: 8/1/2015 1:18:00 PM
My disagreement is that misspellings and bad grammar should not outrank the message, spirit and heart of a poem. If poets worried more about the poetry--the true message being conveyed and less about superficial perfection they would be better off, possibly better poets. I did agree that for publishing its a must! Myself, I look at each poem as a whole, not a divided into sections examination probing for mistakes in grammar and spelling. The overall message, heart and soul of a poem far out-rates any of that IMHO.
Date: 8/1/2015 10:03:00 AM
"I adore grammar" is singular in its exclusivity, you must admit, Andrea.
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 10:06:00 AM
Julia, I adore many things: my cat, my dog, my life. . . Whatever! (and of course you went and put up YOUR comment right as I was addressing Jan with my last comment that has now fallen into YOUR box). As usual, you have caused me to spend too much time when I should be getting to other things. Talking with you, as usual, has completely wasted my time.
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 10:03:00 AM
Well, Jan, looks like you put up your comment here right as I was answering Julia's. For anyone reading this, my comment underneath was meant for Julia's box.
Date: 8/1/2015 10:01:00 AM
Hi Mary - congratulations on bringing us a very interesting blog. At the school I work at they are having a massive push on grammar, punctuation etc as they are trying to improve literacy skills in general.:-) hugs Jan xx
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 10:01:00 AM
I am happy to see your opinion. It means so much to me, Julia.
Date: 8/1/2015 9:55:00 AM
Andrea - regarding contest entries. Other judges realize that people have varying abilities in grammar, but they don't set out teacher-type lectures in the preamble to contests.
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Date: 8/1/2015 9:48:00 AM
Andrea - Regarding your question to me... You did not say "I, and many others here, enjoy grammar". That would have dispelled any notion for me to think you consider yourself the only one on the site who likes grammar.
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 9:58:00 AM
Good grief!
Date: 8/1/2015 9:08:00 AM
MESSAGE OVER MANNER. I deliberately use "its" instead of (it's). Feel as free as like to ignore any of my poems that I use that in. Its (see the usage) not as important that the perfection of language/grammar/punctuation if the most important aspect of the poem is good/great. The spirit, soul and heart of a poem rank light-years above the perfection of grammar etc., IMHO.. To publish yes important, otherwise write as you speak. No apostrophe in the spoken word.
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Date: 8/1/2015 8:40:00 AM
Mary, I like your blog, I agree grammar is important and the words you have given are good examples, the wrong word throws the poem off and punctuation in a poem is important also, however, I think in poetry that poetic license has to be allowed as I find a poem strict is not appealing to me at all. I have noticed that the great poets in the past used terrible grammar and punctuation and their poems went on to be famous. Happily I have no dream of being published, my poems are safe from an editors slush pile and I would never subject my poems (my children) to that, oh yes once written they are my treasures whether they are perfect or not . . .
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 12:31:00 PM
Constance, you have a great grasp of the language! Your writing is clear and imaginative. I am interested in these famous poets with bad grammar or punctuation you are talking about. Do you mean ones like e e cummings or the ones who deliberately use colorful slang expressions in their poems? Poetic license certainly applies when the person doing the writing knows exactly what he is doing!
Date: 8/1/2015 6:35:00 AM
Blame it on Spell Check! My brother, a unique saxophonist, received headlines in the New Orleans paper: "Sex Man To Lead Charity Benefit"
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Jan Allison
Date: 8/1/2015 11:57:00 AM
that is a class answer Frank I for one am SOOOO glad you are still here! hugs jan xxx
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 9:27:00 AM
hahaha
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Jan Allison
Date: 8/1/2015 7:31:00 AM
I hope they got lots of ticket sales as a result Judy LOL:-) I don't rely on my 'smell chequer' it doesn't work well lol Hugs jan xx
Date: 8/1/2015 2:54:00 AM
Young people do care about grammar and language, Mary. It is not their fault if they have not been taught properly.
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 9:30:00 AM
You must not have talked with kids in some of the American schools over here. Some of them are too busy texting with bad English when they should be paying attention to their English teacher.
Date: 8/1/2015 1:45:00 AM
I also like grammar very much Andrea. You are not the only person on the site to feel that way.
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 9:27:00 AM
when did I say I was the only person on this site who loved grammar? I don't remember ever saying that. I came here because I saw Mary appreciated it. I know Eileen does. I know many poets here who love grammar, and it shows in their writing. Why do you always seem to have something negative to say to me?
Date: 8/1/2015 1:43:00 AM
Further to mine of 1:11 AM, poetry-writers have a more relaxed attitude to punctuation than you would have it, Andrea. Missing out periods is done for a stylistic reason; larger gaps between words can also be utilized, as can unusual line spacing.
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 9:18:00 AM
Julia, of course I realize that. It's the reason I accept that kind of writing in my contests. I am more concerned with improper line breaks and when the lack of punctuation causes confusion for the reader. Even worse is when a person who does not know the rules misuses punctuation, placing commas or periods after every single line, for example. If you were reading a lot of contest entries, you would see this.
Date: 7/31/2015 11:16:00 PM
Mary, my kids couldn't have cared less for it. Well, my daughter is the creative type and was not college bound. But my son was going to be going to law school, so he FINALLY realized the importance of what I had been teaching all his life while he was growing up. The weird thing is that he was very stubborn and did not want me teaching him anything. He went online and was able to learn ALL the stuff that he should have gotten while in school. I was very proud of him that he finally "got it" and also that I did not have to edit his horrible essay writing any more. hahaha
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Date: 7/31/2015 9:49:00 PM
THANK YOU. I adore grammar and teach it at school, so I am sure some people here think I am weird! It's true that many people do not care about it any more. I heard statistics on our high school kids that was horrible, and it all goes back to learning the basics (not just grammar)
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 12:16:00 PM
Nikko, I am not being misconstrued by the smart people at this blog. Some people (and I am being tactful here by saying "some" people) enjoy going after those who annoy them for one reason or another. They just get off on trying to ruffle feathers. Also "they" deliberately lie (and I don't mean the lie confused with lay. hahaha) Thanks for your kind words, Nikko. I miss you! And PD, nobody called me weird! I just think that some people probably think that about me (or worse) because I am trying to bring attention to good language use through my contests. I certainly take into account all aspects of a person's poem and it bothers me if some people do not realize that.
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Kabuteng P.Ink K.
Date: 8/1/2015 11:52:00 AM
Hi Andrea, just me saying hi, and reading some comments, I think you are being misconstrued. I do think that you are right with how there seems to be less of an interest with proper grammar and punctuation. Especially these days, with the onset of text speak & such. I think that your contributions here at Soup (& your school) about grammar & punctuation have been very helpful and even inspirational.
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Poet Destroyer A
Date: 8/1/2015 11:50:00 AM
I can't believe someone called you weird... LOL,,, AWESOME does not start with a W... but you know what last name starts with a W... LOL... yup that is right, weird enough...
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Jan Allison
Date: 8/1/2015 10:13:00 AM
Andrea some people simply aren't worth wasting your time on:-( hugs Jan xx
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Andrea Dietrich
Date: 8/1/2015 9:24:00 AM
Your comment is silly to me, Julia. Who would "we" be? I said "some" people find me weird because they have TOLD me so in soupmails. At least five people have told me that they could not care less about grammar or punctuation when they write their poems.They are the types who must surely find my love for grammar weird. I know my students think it is weird! I know there are poets here who care about the correct use of their language, and I very much appreciate seeing their poems in my contests.
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Julia Ward
Date: 8/1/2015 1:11:00 AM
Andrea - It's not that we think you're weird... We resent it that you don't appreciate we know grammar as much as you.
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Mary Rotman
Date: 7/31/2015 11:12:00 PM
I beat my kids over the head with it all the time. THey've mastered everything except lie and lay. Sounds like a wonderful job (ESL).

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