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IMAGE or IDEA can they both exist in a poem? What do you say - Brian Strand's Blog

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English experiential poet of open verse& creator of the FOOTLE (singular form)&EMAGI digital reverse ekphrasis.A regular @PS since 2007 ,with 9500+ poems posted&sponsor of 1260 contests ( Amazon books- (500+) reviews)GOOGLE my POETRY BLOGS @https://www.blogger.com/profile/02166493604739619406.Read an Ekphrasis e-book for free @ http://free-ekphrasis-ebook.blogspot.com/

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IMAGE or IDEA can they both exist in a poem? What do you say

Blog Posted:3/21/2017 12:01:00 PM

This blog takes up a comment from Cyndi ( on another blog)and invites you to give the title(s) of your favourite poem(s,) to explore whether that the poem(s) will contain DEPTH both in IMAGE and in IDEA or MESSAGE.

Please quote the full title and poet's name ( then others can check out the full poem elsewhere on the net) also perhaps quote an extract of a few lines to show its depth in both Image ,Idea or Message or otherwise.

Here is one of my favourites , with the first quatrain

Auguries of Innocence by William Blake

To see a World in a Grain of Sand

And a Heaven in a Wild Flower

Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand

And Eternity in an hour

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Deborah
Burch

Date: 3/24/2017 10:26:00 PM

Ok. I responded to "love is blind" on Cyndi's poem post. :) as I see it. These are all such fantastic responses and pondering!! Oh I had to cut it off d/t Character restrictions!! Lol

James Marshall
Goff

Date: 3/23/2017 5:50:00 PM

Amazing blog Brian! Great conversation! also...the reader (me) may feel connected to a poem's story regionally, that others may not feel...I'm talking about Longfellow's "Song of Hiawatha" Pop would read it to us before bed with the promise that he would take us 15mn. away to Hiawatha Falls and hike behind the waterfall & venture down the trail to the Mississippi a mile away in the woods to dare each other (with my older brother) to explore the limestone caves on the bank of the river (since sealed with concrete due to danger!)

Brian Strand
Date: 3/24/2017 4:03:00 AM

Yes Jim, came out of Cyndi's comment on an earlier blog.Images remain long after the event especially those from childhood.Trust you have kept them for posterity in some way.Have a good weekend

Brian
Strand

Date: 3/23/2017 8:53:00 AM

What came first to Blake in his second line I quote above..was he looking at a wild flower when he saw(to quote Cyndi below)'I can imagine all the light and beauty and depth of heaven inside the loveliness of a primrose.'..did this give him a line for the poem entitled 'Augeries of Innocence'.Who cares is my conclusion,we are discussing a quatrain of great age,200 +years that in itself .Testament to the image or idea.What you will

Doug
Vinson

Date: 3/23/2017 8:01:00 AM

https://www.poetrysoup.com/poem/love_is_blind_886498 Four images that I thought represented love being blind, or five if you allow a perhaps overly-clever interpretation/analysis. I conclude that "blind love" operates on different time frames, varying by the situation.

Cyndi
Macmillan

Date: 3/22/2017 11:09:00 PM

Okay, Chums. I wrote a poem which is an interpretation on the theme "love is blind." My poem is titled "Beauty, Unexpected." Doug, Brian, Doug, Craig, Iain... anyone else willing to give it a go? Brian, you may post it here, if you'd like, and discuss idea and image. It's midnight and I'm exhausted. Good night.

Craig Cornish
Date: 3/23/2017 1:04:00 PM

Love your perception of the thought Cyndi, I just wrote to it as well

Doug Vinson
Date: 3/23/2017 8:08:00 AM

Cyndi, ah yes, the difference in perceptions, and an eye-misting ending. : ) You mentioned "the visionless," which I think is important - even love itself, existing in different amounts and modes in the individual, may fail to see.

Craig Cornish
Date: 3/23/2017 7:11:00 AM

Will do Cyndi---I haven't written for a few days so I will.

Brian Strand
Date: 3/23/2017 4:51:00 AM

LOVE IS BLIND(3)As is/to what was, love's tug-o-war-/yesterday's experience..we ignore

Brian Strand
Date: 3/23/2017 4:46:00 AM

LOVE IS BLIND (2)(in lanterne form)Love/adores,/then ignores-/what other's may/see......

Brian Strand
Date: 3/23/2017 4:13:00 AM

LOVE IS BLIND I love making pictures with words...For all to see;My idea and poem is all one...in my reality.NOTE DEFINITIONDS imagery is making pictures ...the source of the English word idea (from the Greek) is to see.

Anthony
Mark

Date: 3/22/2017 6:10:00 PM

stones of wrist girth'd root and branch under cold bowering mournings sight, the cleave of leaf dressed tooth to jowl welcomes the gallopings of night, solstice violettes and scents that bathe on paths shinecast with twig and brace, crocii sets dill to watch sky's knight to wait the firsts of gold upon a face That's what I think, lol

Craig Cornish
Date: 3/23/2017 1:44:00 PM

Marcus, always 8-)

Cyndi
Macmillan

Date: 3/22/2017 5:46:00 PM

Doug-- I really like your idea. I think we can safely exclude Chris as his Love Poem #29 is a variant on "Love is Blind." I will certainly give this a spin tonight. It will be my last break away from fiction for a couple of weeks. Brian? Craig? You in? PS: Mine will involve the Zika virus and will shine a positive light on "love is blind."

Doug Vinson
Date: 3/23/2017 7:31:00 AM

Chris, your Love Poem #29 is such a 'statement' that I don't notice an abundance of modifiers being bad. " I fall in love // with items that people throw to the wind, // kick around, and step upon." = Oh yes, this. : ) Same, all my life, in pictures and in words.

Craig Cornish
Date: 3/23/2017 7:10:00 AM

To Chris, whatever its failings in perfection of "proper" presentation, it shines in its innocence. Yes, every poet that wants to grow sees past writes from a new more "snobby" pulpit, but in doing so, neglects some of the wonder of our growth. It is one of the few writes I have printed out and saved--because of its simple yet powerful message.

Cyndi Macmillan
Date: 3/22/2017 7:15:00 PM

I know we grow and those earlier explorations can make us squirm, a bit. But yours has such a CORE. Don't lose the CORE!!!

Cyndi Macmillan
Date: 3/22/2017 7:15:00 PM

Balderdash!!!! If you absolutely must, revise the piece, but for the love of mike, don't discount it, Chum!! It is special. In fact, a challenge. Write it again, (keeping the original message that love is for everything and everyone) and please share it with me (either off or on Soup). !

Cyndi Macmillan
Date: 3/22/2017 5:50:00 PM

PS-- here is that poem, Doug, that I mentioned. www.poetrysoup.com/poem/love_poem_29_383629

Brian
Strand

Date: 3/22/2017 6:46:00 AM

Blake says he sees ..Heaven in a Wild flower.The image in his eye sparks his imagination to bloom.There is no doubt in my mind that an 'as is moment ' or as Pollock puts 'an arrested moment' is the creative impulse for the poem or the artwork.The haiku and similar imagist poetry form is particularly susceptible in this regard.My footle form in sequence being witty and topical etc is more of a thought process.

Brian Strand
Date: 3/22/2017 8:53:00 AM

I think you are right Doug, on your fractal point.

Doug Vinson
Date: 3/22/2017 8:10:00 AM

Well, that one poem proves that Blake thought of many things. ; ) Ideas of fate, fairness, karma - a massive "working out" of things in the end. Perhaps our perceptions and experience are fractal in nature, i.e. we may be as happy considering the wild flower as would one be looking out across all the broad velvet lawns of olde England?

Deborah
Burch

Date: 3/21/2017 10:23:00 PM

Great blog Brian! Hopefully blogs like this and Cyndi's will help the learning process and efforts towards Better poetry (for myself)...with that, how about the allegory/allegorical poem...does it not contain both Image and idea? (Possibly several...lol) can it not Be interpreted literally as well as allegorically...symbols, hidden meanings...look at "Animal Farm"-G. Orwell. (Just one of many examples). What do you think or am I too far off base?

Cyndi Macmillan
Date: 3/22/2017 12:23:00 PM

(((Deborah)))) Not off base one bit. Every good poem is made up of a hundred or more tiny bits... a pinch of this, a cup of that, stir the pot, up the heat, trim off the fat, never serve promptly and tada-- (though it may not be for all tastes ;) )

Brian Strand
Date: 3/22/2017 2:38:00 AM

Deborah a you and as says the 50's song has it ...poetry like love ...is a many splendored thing'

Deborah Burch
Date: 3/21/2017 10:25:00 PM

Oh...did I mention Dr. Seuss! ;)

Doug
Vinson

Date: 3/21/2017 9:38:00 PM

William Morris, 'The Doomed Ship' - "The doomed ship drives on helpless through the sea, All that the mariners may do is done // And death is left for men to gaze upon, While side by side two friends sit silently; Friends once, foes once, and now by death made free // Of Love and Hate, of all things lost or won; Yet still the wonder of that strife bygone // Clouds all the hope or horror that may be. /// Thus, Sorrow, are we sitting side by side // Amid this welter of the grey despair, Nor have we images of foul or fair // To vex, save of thy kissed face of a bride, Thy scornful face of tears when I was tried, And failed neath pain I was not made to bear."

Cyndi Macmillan
Date: 3/22/2017 12:20:00 PM

I really like... "this welter of the grey despair." Rings as true today as then.

Doug Vinson
Date: 3/21/2017 9:50:00 PM

Some of Morris's unhappiness, frustration and pain comes through - it was an uncertain time in his life and he didn't intend this poem for publication. Ideas of how circumstance affects things, and what we would think of at the last. Images of finality, of things dear and wondrous.

Robert
Lindley

Date: 3/21/2017 9:11:00 PM

Poetry is the universe that we can only, if blessed and at best, fathom by looking through a thick, dark glass in dim sunlight.. Heart, message, soul and ideas are its central core- with the poet the deliverer and the message sent the blessing, IMHO. YET IN OUR MINDS WE FIND POEMS THAT REACH US TO OUR VERY CORE AND EMPOWER US TO LOOK FOR BETTER IN ALL THINGS. Such represents blessed art of the truth, love and greatness of poetry.

Doug Vinson
Date: 3/21/2017 9:55:00 PM

Well said, Robert. Yes, a big universe to fathom - one excellent thing is that we get many glimpses from the varied personas and approaches of different poets. A big, rich universe.

Cyndi
Macmillan

Date: 3/21/2017 2:07:00 PM

Must be off Soup for a bit. Brian, if you give me any idea or concept or a subject to convey that is not normally image based, I can show Julia what I mean, then it may clarify things. I'd be willing to do this :) Only a twenty or so line poem, mind you. Cheers! Cyndi

Doug Vinson
Date: 3/22/2017 9:53:00 AM

Let's all do a poem. : )

Brian Strand
Date: 3/22/2017 2:34:00 AM

Here is one for you Cyndi 'Love is blind'

Cyndi
Macmillan

Date: 3/21/2017 1:51:00 PM

Imagery is only one element of poem which helps to convey the idea in an artistic way. For those who don't understand ... here you go. study.com/academy/lesson/form-meaning-in-poetry.html Only 2 and a half minutes for clarity. It's pretty straightforward.

Brian Strand
Date: 3/22/2017 4:56:00 PM

You are right Cyndi imagery is making pictures ...the source of the word (from the Greek) is to see.

Cyndi Macmillan
Date: 3/21/2017 1:52:00 PM

Another way to say this is: Imagery can be used to convey the idea :D

Brian
Strand

Date: 3/21/2017 12:41:00 PM

For me the imagery in the Blake quatrain above is in the image it invokes in us with the words 'a Heaven in a Wild Flower '

Cyndi Macmillan
Date: 3/21/2017 1:54:00 PM

Julia, the idea is there, too. But the image is what we see with our mind's-eye when we read a line. I can imagine all the light and beauty and depth of heaven inside the loveliness of a primrose.

Julia Ward
Date: 3/21/2017 1:28:00 PM

"Heaven in a Wild Flower" is an IDEA, not an image.

Cyndi Macmillan
Date: 3/21/2017 12:46:00 PM

Blake has done marvels, here. Each line is both idea and image! Awesome choice, Brian :) Gotta fly!

Brian
Strand

Date: 3/21/2017 12:38:00 PM

I think Cyndi isright the problem lies with the definition of 'imagery'.Here is PS version in the terms link above 'The creation of images using words. Poets usually achieve this by invoking comparisons by means of metaphor or simile or other figures of speech. In his famous line from sonnet 18 Shakespeare creates an image by comparing his love to a 'summer's day'.

Craig Cornish
Date: 3/22/2017 8:01:00 AM

Couldn't disagree more Julia, a sonnet has just as much flexibility with image and idea as any form. I will give you examples but gotta run.

Julia Ward
Date: 3/21/2017 1:31:00 PM

In the case of the sonnet, there again it's the idea that's important.

Cyndi
Macmillan

Date: 3/21/2017 12:24:00 PM

A poem that NEVER left me: David by Earle Birney. From it: "And drew me up after. We set a new time for that climb.//That day returning we found a robin gyrating//In grass, wing-broken. I caught it to tame but David//took and killed it, and said, "Could you teach it to fly?" A robin gyrating... the imagery of that is haunting. This particular stanza is significant in the poem, as David will fall and BESEECH the author to kill him, to help him commit suicide because he is paralyzed on a mountainside and will suffer for days. David loves climbing and the mountains. A life in a wheelchair would have KILLED him. What is life? What is a life worth living? What is friendship? What is loyalty? What is bravery? The poem provokes thoughts and is filled with insight. It is also very rich in imagery. I think one of the problems we are running into is what is imagery? Some may think imagery involves a static scene-- that it does not move, does not BREATHE. When it absolutely can! Imagery is more than what we see, but what we truly experience in a poem! Anyhoo, for those interested in the rest of the poem: rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poems/david

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IMAGE or IDEA can they both exist in a poem? What do you say - Brian Strand's Blog

IMAGE or IDEA can they both exist in a poem? What do you say

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